Hot Stuff / Wicked Wheel

I am 100% convinced that Hot Stuff is predetermined. Otherwise if it was a fair pick, given there's exactly three of everything, you'd see a lot more top jackpot wins. It seems too convenient that despite that the wins are almost always in the lower half of the progressive options.

 

Yes, I believe it is predetermined yet shows what you “could” have picked.

With those symbols taking away the lower amounts, there is no way that the top jackpot doesn’t get hit on a daily basis if it was truly based on picks.

 

I almost made a thread about this too.

I figure there's three things going on:

1. It's not a common wide practice where if a game shows you what's behind all the choices, it's not pre determined

2. This is an exception to the rule above.

3. It follows the rule and we're all just unlucky as hell where we could have won the jackpot by picking the choice to the left of our last pick.

 

Regarding number 1, I can tell you having spoken to a couple of slot designers in my day, that they will tell you that being shown the other options when a bonus ends is the traditional way to confirm it's a fair pick and not predetermined. They showed successor machines at G2E this year that do the same, and when a slot channel asked point blank if it was predetermined, he responded "Oh it's always luck" which is not a direct answer but implies to me predetermined. Question is asked at 15:30 on this video:

 

Ah that makes it more confused!

So you're saying your experience by talking to manufacturers is that it's not predetermined. But this video is vague IMO. I don't know what he considers luck when answering the question. Luck as in it's all about your picks, or luck as in timing for the RNG.

I appreciate the video though. Cool to see.

 

I had always been under the impression too that If they show what’s behind each that it wasn’t predetermined. I think that’s been the case for a while.
However the manufacturer of this game, Everi, seems to go against that.
I have found all of their new games show what’s behind each pick, and it always seems that I just “miss” the grand. Some of the others like Fu Xuan and even the Jackpot Jump games do this.

So it’s just their way of making games that they do this. It might be because they used to only make Class 2 slots, and on all class 2 slots the picks and bonuses are predetermined even if they show, so they might have just kept that theme for class 3 slots as well

 

Well I was under the impression it was a rule or regulation(in a legit casino) That if it showed the other picks it had to be true. They have that machine listed as a class 3. So hopefully someone will figure this out, because that's gonna bug me!

 

I vaguely recall Aristocrat having to rework their "Mummy" slot machine back in 2012 or 2013 for certain markets. They had a predetermined progressive "pick" bonus, that did show what was left on the board, even though you had no chance of winning those with the RNG selected outcome.

Something with earning bullets. No matter how many bullets you got, or picks made correctly, you would only win what the machine pre-selected.

They had to make this "blind" and not show you were the higher awards, or more bullets (whatever) were, unless that selection was actually there to be made.

As other have stated, the "rule" was, if they show you what you "could have picked" at the end, the bonus round was true, and your picks did in fact determine the outcome. If they do NOT show you, it was predetermined, and it did not matter what you touched, your award was what the RNG selected.

I use "rule" in quotes, as I do not know if there is a specific law that applies to this situation.

But there are consumer protection laws in place.

You cant tell me I could have picked a random envelope that might have a $10,000 check in it, where as the other I could have selected would only have a dollar bill. But in reality, none of the envelopes in front of me had anything but dollars in them.

That was the loop hole in the old train of thought in regards to this. Much like the Random Number Generator itself, you could be presented 10 envelopes, and all 10 had dollar bills, but the one with the $10K check was still sitting in the back. By not showing you where that $10K check "was", the consumer was not mislead.

By these games showing you where it "was", but not actually allowing you to discover them, that is misleading.

Not just misleading on the surface, that you were shown something you could never have gotten. But misleading as being deceptive, by making consumers believe those big jackpots are always that close to being won.

If you always have 5 envelopes, and 5 vastly different amounts, and you show what could have been won in each, an average person would assume, and rightfully so, that they have a 1 in 5 chance of getting the top award.

If that is not possible, but the game leads you to think it is, that should be illegal, if it is not already so.

 

Very detailed response Grid.

I do agree with you though that it would be helpful to see the law on this.

I'm an attorney, though nothing close to consumer law. So its interesting to see if there is a law (which would probably vary by state).

One other slot machine that I find deceptive and I'm not sure how its allowed still, are some old Konami games that on the marquee, say "3 of x icons win bonus"

But they have to be from left to right. But no where in the game rules does it say it has to be left to right. I remember when I started gambling I got 3 scattered of the symbols so I thought I should have gotten the bonus. It wasn't in the rules that they have to be left to right.

A little off topic but yeah.

 

Love it Tycoon!

There might actually be a class action lawsuit in this for you.

Those that know me, and read my shitty blog, know I am a slot history nerd with this stuff. I have sat down with countless slot directors, attended my fair share of gaming expos, have met, and even toured slot manufactures facilities, by their own invite.

Something is not right with this game, or others that operate like it.

Another game I recall, which might have been one of the first predetermined picking bonuses, was the old Williams gaming slot "Money to Burn"

You put out fires with your pick, but it did not matter which buildings you selected, you were always going to be awarded what the machine selected. The actual picking was just for show.

While that game did not have the balls to show you what you could have picked, even though you had no chance, they were still forced to add an explanation to the bonus process in their game rules tab, before being granted class III status.

Maybe that in itself is the loophole to "Hot Stuff" and others like it. Next time someone sits on one of these machines, check the rules screen. If they do state that their picking bonus is predetermined. And the actual reveal is nothing more than theatrics, they could point to that.

But if they say nothing, and still lead you to believe your pick could have mattered, they could get in trouble.

Before the advent of the predetermined bonus, the possible picking values were not that far off on a Fair Pick. 5 envelopes, one with $5.00, one with $10, then $15, $20 & $25. Or, they would increase those top awards by adding more envelopes. 20 to choose from. 10 had $5.00 and one had $100. With the rest falling between to keep the long term payback close to actual

 

To an extent, though, even if it is predetermined, it's not hugely different (at least, in my mind), from the psychological aspects of slot machine game design in general. The RNG determines the final outcome, with the reels just being a representation of that. Machines are programmed for the reels to look like you almost won -- two cherries on the line and one just below, things like that. Or how on games with bonuses, if you have two bonus icons, the additional reels will take forever to spin; it's not actually taking longer to determine the last line(s), and your win was set as soon as you hit "spin", they're just making a big deal out of it. The outcome is definitely randomly determined, it's just represented in different ways. It's certainly manipulative, but I'm not sure it's truly unfair.

 

I realized I jumbled it all together in my reply, but thankfully you followed along haha. Your summary is accurate, as with other comments here overall. I don't know the legality of it either but it's very, very rare to see an unpicked reveal and it be predetermined. 99% of the time it's a fair pick. I still cannot pull an example of where else I've seen it, but I feel like I've seen it at least one other time, and it may be an example @Grid! is referencing in his posts.

 

I read that Nevada gambling commission made a law a long time ago that said that slot manufacturers weren't allowed to program a slot to flash a winning 3rd reel. There by giving the player the false impression that they almost won. It was written to curtail addiction i believe. The way the slots behave now though, the law was either abolished or its ignored.

 

I'm not familiar with that particular regulation, but if it's what I'm thinking of, and if I had to guess, it was a slightly different situation in question -- it was machines displaying a winning third reel briefly and then moving off of it. That's different from something like having the winning symbol be just below the payline, or drawing out resolution of the third line. Making you think you almost won is gambling design 101, just look to lottery scratchoffs. What you can't do is display a winner and then say "nevermind!".

 

Hugely different in my mind.

By having that bonus symbol or multipliers just miss the paylines, while psychological educing some players to think the big one is so, so close to hitting, it is still just that. A near miss (or near hit, depending on how you look at it)

The unfair and misleading nature of Hot Stuff is, they actually show you what nearly everyone would consider and actual miss. Unlike a bonus symbol that lands just short of triggering. This machine actually shows you "Hey, dummy, if you only would have picked this one you would be rich right now"

And that is beyond unfair. Just missing a payout and a machine showing you what you "could" have won, if only you touched a different part of the screen, are 2 different animals in my mind. Especially when they show you something that is completely fabricated.

If you would have picked that last tile in the upper right corner, it would have been a mini (or whatever) with the Ultra Jackpot in the lower left. If you picked lower left, it would have been upper right. There is no way you could have picked correctly, since picking is only there for "fun"

It is a downright lie to show you something you never could have got, if the RNG did not select it for you. And it is crooked to lead you to believe that every pick is weighted the same, 3 coins for the mini the same as there are 3 coin for the Ultra.

I actually went looking for this game over the weekend. Found it at Harrah's Joliet. The jackpot picking bonus is for entertainment purposes only, and the actual outcome is predetermined. Says so right in the rules screen.

Even though they may have an out for doing it, it is still slimy of them to trick players in this manner IMO.

 

Amen. Sometimes there are little nuggets of wisdom--occasionally they'll tell you which bonus choice has the biggest payout long term and stuff like that.