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I Angered the Cosmo Offer Gods

Discussion in 'Identity - Cosmopolitan of Las Vegas' started by Grid!, Feb 11, 2019.

  1. Wanker751

    Wanker751 Chairman
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    It is no different than typical trip [actually little more cause I recall a fellow board member played some multi line vp on my card]

    We will see after this next trip for sure. Cleary I am worthy enough cause host comped me.
     
  2. Rio_ChiefGamingOfficer

    Official Account Founding Fanatic

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    I'll add a little to this one as well.

    If you're now receiving the "no stay Identity Play" offers (or that's all you've ever gotten), that means you're at the level just below receiving a standard room comp. And we have a couple levels of the no stay offer as well. Again, it's purely generated from the computer based on your trip valuation over a certain period of time (I won't reveal that duration). You may still receive offers for extremely discounted dates or even comp dates, but they would be from a finite list (you'd receive a calendar with the dates it is eligible).

    Someone previously mentioned it, but as we are theo per trip based, please remember for example that $20,000 of coin in, on say a 9/6 double double bonus game generates a theo of $204. And let's just assume we give back 30% of that to you in comps, that means you have $61 in comps for us to send you. With an average room rate of $250+ (we're way higher than that, but casino "buys" rooms cheaper than prevailing rate from the hotel), we can't comp rooms at that level. So even at $50,000 coin in on the same poker game, the theo is $510. 30% = 153, which still doesn't cover a room, but probably will get you on the entry level of room comps, possibly just Sun-Thur.

    That's more info than I think I've provided before, but hopefully that gives some clarity on how it works.

    -KS
     
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  3. cryptopiggie

    cryptopiggie Platinum

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    Thanks
     
  4. Wanker751

    Wanker751 Chairman
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    Thank you for the detailed response.

    Looking back at emails I typically have done between 1300 theo and 800 theo per trip [I always run away over theo there too haha... one of these days I won't]

    Offers usually ranging from 4 to 2 nights in that time from, but I have gone towards 1 trip a year where for a few years I did make a few trips per year.

    Either way much appreciated Kevin. Thanks for taking the time to answer. Hopefully after this trip the offers seen to stabilize back to what they used to be. See you in about month.
     
    Figment76 likes this.
  5. IrishDave

    IrishDave Chairman
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    Kevin, at the risk of getting off topic...

    If you can answer, what’s the difference between trip theo and adt? Just using your example the $500 theo gets a Sun-Thurs night comp, so to get four nights you’d need $2000 trip theo or $500 adt, correct? If so, I really don’t see the difference, unless it’s the number of nights in the offer

    Thanks for taking the time to give us the insights you can, you and your team are definitely a cut above
     
    tringlomane likes this.
  6. Rio_ChiefGamingOfficer

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    For us, ADT is pretty much only used to qualify for special events. Standard marketing takes trip theo.

    A person could conceivably manipulate their ADT and still play to their normal trip level. They’d just play all of their gaming in less days than they’re actually visiting.

    Take your $2,000 example. If you do it over 4 days, you have a $500 ADT. Do it all in one day, and your ADT is $2,000. A person won’t get a 4 night Sun-thurs comp though, they’d reach a higher level at $2,000 theo and may get three anytime nights for example. Other things play a factor in our algorithm as well, such as your frequency or how far from property you may live.

    But playing less days will also reduce how many comp nights we may give you. And generally speaking - I want to get you to stay with us as many nights as possible.
    Every study ever has shown players play more where they sleep. And I don’t want to sugar coat the fact that my job is to get people to stay and subsequently play with us more than they do with my competitors.

    In summary, I’d say don’t play for comps. But my recommendation is to concentrate play on two properties at most-at least on a per trip basis. Bouncing around just lowers your overall perceived value to a casino, and subsequently reduces your offers.

    -KS
     
  7. YOleven

    YOleven Palladium

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    ...and I know many of us, myself included, will agree that you do this quite well, Kevin!

    Adding some of my personal experiences to the discussion, I usually visit Cosmo 2 or 3 times a year, for 5-7 nights per stay. my level of play is undoubtedly very modest by strip standards, yet for the last couple of years I've received 4 night comp offers from Cosmo on a regular basis. Usually I'll take advantage of a 4 night comp offer, then tack on a few nights at casino rate. Although I tend to be a consistent, loyal patron, I doubt that my level of play and consequent theo. racked up over the course of a trip alone would qualify me for the great offers I receive from Cosmo, so as Kevin has mentioned, I have no doubt that factors such as frequency of visits and trip valuation over an extended period of time factor into the automated comp algorithms.

    On a related note, if I'm visiting Cosmo for 6 nights, taking advantage of a 4 night comp offer then tacking on 2 nights at casino rate, is the overall theo. / valuation of that particular trip based primarily on play during the 4 comped nights, or would theo. accrued over all 6 nights be considered the total theo. for the visit?

    Also, are Cosmo's hosts at liberty to share with guests their accrued theo. during a visit, or for past visits? I'm not sure if this specific value is usually available to guests upon request, and I'd imagine that different properties have different policies.
     
  8. CherriesJubilee

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    That seems doubtful for any casino but especially Cosmo. They calculate theoretical losses on a machine by machine basis. If they provided your theo, then you'd be able to calculate exact payback percentages of slot machines. If you put $1000 coin in to one machine and a host said your theo was $100 then you'd be able to determine the slot machine is set to 90% payback. Only on video poker can you determine your exact theo based on the paytable.
     
  9. Wanker751

    Wanker751 Chairman
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    My host I ask him for my stats...

    He gives me my coin in coin out.

    Total win/loss

    Theo

    And variance

    After every trip.
     
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  10. cryptopiggie

    cryptopiggie Platinum

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    Wanker what do you estimate the slot hold is?
     
  11. Wanker751

    Wanker751 Chairman
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    That's where it will take some math on my part because video poker is lumped in there as well. As @tringlomane knows math isn't my strong suit.. lol

    Also right now my recent activity from my last trip isn't showing up on the website... if it were there I could attempt to figure it out.

    Possibly after this trip I maybe can work something out....
     
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  12. YOleven

    YOleven Palladium

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    Regarding my question about whether a "trip" with respect to gaming activity consists of only comped nights or comped nights plus any additional Identity tier nights or nights booked at casino rate, I was re-reading the thread, and Kevin pretty much confirmed that the latter is the case in a message he posted last week...

     
  13. undathesea

    undathesea Gold

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    theo / coin-in

    That should equal the average hold. If you played one machine the entire trip, it should be the hold on that particular machine.
     
  14. Wanker751

    Wanker751 Chairman
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    Lol yes I know...

    But add it the VP (Which I know the theo of) I need to take that out to find the slot hold I had...
     
  15. undathesea

    undathesea Gold

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    Ah. For some reason I missed that part.

    Still, as long as you were playing the same payable, it should be pretty straight-forward to extract the VP.
     
  16. Wanker751

    Wanker751 Chairman
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    Yes the VP would be easy.. Sadly my activity isn't showing up from my last trip..
     
  17. joshj

    joshj Silver

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    That's not quite accurate - it would be the hold for your spins on the machine. The only way if it was the actual hold of the machine would be if the machine paid you exactly what the payback percentage was on every single spin. $1 bet, 93 cents back. Rinse and repeat.

    The reality is short term variance could make that number higher or lower than the actual set payback/WATP on the machine. You'd need to put in millions of spins to approach the actual expected payback of a machine (and at 400-600 spins an hour, good luck with that). One good jackpot or routing will skew the numbers, and that's why some players trend higher than theo and some lower, and why some casinos use theo as a calculation to begin with.
     
  18. undathesea

    undathesea Gold

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    I don't get it. But maybe I'm missing something here.

    The theoretical loss should be the percentage you expect to lose according to the hold for the amount of coin-in. Coin-in represents total amount spent on the machine, regardless of money won. So, if you're playing $1 spins and you spin it 1k times, your coin in would be $1k.

    Therefore, the calculation should be: Coin-in * hold percentage = theoretical loss

    And, if that's actually the case, then: theoretical loss / coin-in = hold percentage

    But, as I said before, I could be missing something as I don't really play slots too much and it's not my area expertise.
     
  19. joshj

    joshj Silver

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    No worries! I can try to help a bit. I didn't disagree with your formula - where things fall down is here:

    You can't calculate the hold on a machine based on one session or series of sessions because of the mathematical variance. On a particular session you could hit a handpay! You could hit basically nothing. The machine isn't set to pay an even amount, it's set to pay a certain percentage back over the long term, and that's that millions of spins I was talking about. So even if you played one machine and asked for the stats, that would only be helpful for determining what happened in your session.

    There's unfortunately no actual way to know the long-term hold of a machine without having access to the stats screen, which is generally not the case unless someone's working on a machine or something like that and you happen to catch a glimpse. So you can't do the calculation you've outlined in your post. You know ACTUAL win/loss which is your results, but your results can easily deviate from the programmed hold/payback. Hopefully that makes it clear.
     
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  20. undathesea

    undathesea Gold

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    But theoretical loss doesn't have anything to do with what actually happened on the machine. So big wins and losses are meaningless.

    Without theo, you would have to calculate it using the session info that you keep referring to. And, as you alluded to earlier, that would be extremely difficult to do.

    But all of that is moot.
     
    Wanker751 likes this.
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