Imperial Baccarat @ Palazzo

VegasChic · Feb 25, 2016

For those that enjoy Baccarat, you may be aware of the video version with live dealers called Imperial Baccarat at Palazzo. Interesting to see that you are earning Grazie points with play- listed below are the earnings rate at each card level!

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PACKER · Feb 26, 2016

What is amazing to me they put on paper info about theo!

Sindustry · Feb 26, 2016

That is very interesting indeed!

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Wanker751 · Feb 26, 2016

I need to get there next time!

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VegasChic · Feb 26, 2016

There was a lot of recent talk on this as I believe they offer the highest limits on it as well. I think it's been as high as 1.2 Million during peak times like SB. That's some serious Grazie points collection......

PACKER · Mar 9, 2016

I wonder how comps and points are calculated? Same? One shoe one hour? If you play 2 games at once is the computer catching that? What is the theo on a $100 avg bet 40, 50, 60 in theo an hour?

Riders · Mar 9, 2016

thefish2010 said: ↑

They track every single hand you play since it's all electronic. So the theo that they tabulate on these machines is exactly the mathematical theo you are giving to the house, there's no guessing about time played, number of hands, etc. They know your actual theo down to the penny.
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Do you know if they also award status points since it is electronic? Versus nothing for table games.

Riders · Mar 9, 2016

thefish2010 said: ↑

Yes, they do. I earned platinum from my play last trip, which I had never had before as a table player (I hadn't even been in V/P to play for a long time before they put the Imperial Baccarat in).
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Perfect. I like the sound of that. Thanks

PACKER · Mar 9, 2016

thefish2010 said: ↑

They track every single hand you play since it's all electronic. So the theo that they tabulate on these machines is exactly the mathematical theo you are giving to the house, there's no guessing about time played, number of hands, etc. They know your actual theo down to the penny. The computer catches all of it, even if you're playing 4 tables at a time. This matters a lot for my play, because I play martingale and my bets swing wildly (last trip my lowest bet was $100, and my highest was $15,000, with many 4 figure bets in between that a pit boss may not have caught because my starting bet was always $100)

Theo on a $100 average on the player side at 1.24% is $1.24 per hand played. On the banker side it's 1.06%, so $1.06 per $100 hand played.
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90 bucks an hour give or take? 73 or so hands an hour.

PACKER · Mar 9, 2016

That's a lot. 70 ish at wynn and aria.
The thing is with theo the Casinos have different calculations/formulas for it. . They also have different values for rooms, food, bev and so on. I haven't stayed or played at V/P in years since they changed the comp system there. It used to be my go to casino for years. I know they are now a little more welcoming to gamblers these days.

PACKER · Mar 9, 2016

thefish2010 said: ↑

Yeah, because there they are estimating in time for dealers talking to players, player buyins and color changes, people taking longer to choose their bets, etc. The way of the future is definitely being able to actually count every single bet. Otherwise they're just guessing at your value as a player.
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Very true but they also might be at 25-30% ofv theo for comps where other places are 40-50%.. I don't stay there so I don't know for sure.

PACKER · Mar 9, 2016

I really like handling the cards and interacting with the others at the table. That makes it fun. Kind of cold just pushing buttons. However I'm an equal opportunity winner. If I can win there I'll play there! Do you have any guarantees for me? Lol

PACKER · Mar 9, 2016

thefish2010 said: ↑

I think at the higher levels, they'd have to treat you as a high-end table player. I saw someone there playing 3 tables simultaneously at $50K/hand/table. $150K in action at any given moment, and these tables move much faster than even mini-baccarat, so her theo was probably equivalent to someone playing like $250K/hand at a regular mini baccarat table. Someone like that is likely getting 40 or 50%, plus loss rebates etc. Hosts at V/P have been OK so far. I didn't come close to using 40% of theo since I was there by myself, but everything was comped.
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You really have to be a Las Vegas DEGENERATE to play those machines two at a time! Double fisted bacc playing!! Got to love it! Welcome to the DEGEN list thefish! Lol

Wanker751 · Mar 9, 2016

I gotta check this out next time I go. I usually just walk past venetian and go to wynn. Been a few years since i went into VP. I dislike Sheldon.

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Sindustry · Mar 9, 2016

thefish2010 said: ↑

I was there a few weeks ago. They are now at $1.7 million, though that is the aggregate max across all of the machines. It's pretty neat because there are 4 tables all running at once, and you can multi-table if you want (though I found it difficult to keep up with more than 2 at a time since it's pretty fast paced). There is another set of 20 machines at the Venetian, and the maximum there is $500,000. I couldn't believe the limits, because it exposes them to potential 9 figure losses if someone gets on a run. But it's really true:

And here is the Venetian's machine, with a $500,000 limit:

The minimum on both is $5, so if you enjoy baccarat, whether you are a massive player or are just beginning, these are about the best place to play baccarat in Las Vegas. There are no w2g's regardless of your stakes because it's dealt live.

Another advantage to these machines is that there is no one to tip...I tend to overtip, and indeed probably give as much to dealers as I actually lose to the theo on the table games I play. That's pretty easy to do...in blackjack for example, you'll get roughly 5 blackjacks per hour. If you bet just 5% of your win from each blackjack for the dealer on the next hand, you're giving more to the dealers than you are to the house overall (you're more than doubling your theoretical loss). It's tempting to do the same on Baccarat, when you hit a natural 9 over 8, or come from behind and turn your 1 into a 9, or similar types of hands. Over time that means more than half of my losses in Vegas have gone to dealer tips. So having no one to tip cuts out a significant bankroll drain that most people don't give any thought to because they are tipping most when they are winning, not realizing that eventually the losses will overcome the wins, leaving the tips coming straight out of their pockets.

Oh...that brings me to the other thing at Palazzo. I play big enough that I can't play electronic blackjack machines because I don't to wait for a w2g every hand (these are not live dealt like imperial baccarat is, so they are considered slot machines). But if I played lower stakes, I would definitely play the machine at Palazzo, and probably nowhere else. It has a limit from $5-$3,000 with a very low house edge (around 0.4% with basic strategy). The rules are the best I've seen on any electronic blackjack game in Las Vegas, and on the strip it's the lowest edge $5 minimum blackjack game you'll find at any table or any machine (this was as of about 3 weeks ago). So if you are a low stakes BJ player, look no further. I don't remember the name of it but it has a monitor showing a virtual dealer, and like 6 or so terminals in front of the screen.
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Excellent information, Fish! I don't play too much bac, but I'll definitely give this a shot next time I'm at V/P!

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VegasChic · Mar 9, 2016

thefish2010 said: ↑

Yes, they do. I earned platinum from my play last trip, which I had never had before as a table player (I hadn't even been in V/P to play for a long time before they put the Imperial Baccarat in, but to be fair I was gold from my previous imperial baccarat trip; I think it would be difficult to earn platinum in 1 trip from a standing start on this machine unless you brought $200K+ to play with and were averaging mid-four figure bets). You earn Grazie gift points, status points, and regular slot points that can be redeemed for freeplay (and they allow you to play your freeplay on the baccarat machines or any slot machine).

Plus the offers you get from play on these machines are pretty decent, and those are in addition to everything above. For probably 99% of players, these machines are by far the best deal for baccarat in the city, the other 1% being those with massive credit lines that have special deals and discounts/incentives. But you may even be able to negotiate that kind of thing on these machines as well, I haven't asked yet.
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Opening up your Baccarat/Blackjack play into the players card program cannot be stressed enough for the benefits!

As outlined by thefish2010, the earned slot/resort credits are considered separate from anything negotiated with your host, they do NOT use these credits at all. The conversion rate to freeplay or resort credit is at a rate of $15 for every 2500 points earned- it adds up very quickly at Platinum level. On those machines the earnings rate (at Plat) is 9% THEO available in credit, with 15 points awarded for each $ of Theo for status progression and Grazie Gift points accumulation.

When at the Grazie Gifts show in Nov/2015, they had a BMW I8 available for 92M points!

Dailun noted there was a player there with 72M points negotiating on the car where they were considering allowing him to make up the difference in cash. This would have been over and above the freeplay he accrued ($432,000?) and above any host negotiated comps/incentives trip per trip. Although it was possible he accrued it on slots, I'm sure for that volume of $$ he was playing something with a lower HA.

Here is a link to full details of the Grazie program and benefits:

https://clubgrazie.venetian.com/app_themes/assets/pdf/cardlevelbrochure_en-us.pdf

VegasChic · Mar 9, 2016

PACKER said: ↑

Very true but they also might be at 25-30% ofv theo for comps where other places are 40-50%.. I don't stay there so I don't know for sure.
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It very well could be lower, especially if players are using this electronic version and gaining benefits through the Grazie program- the comp pie is only so big and can only be cut so many ways I assume.

That said, this could be a very attractive option for players who never manage to use up all their comps during high THEO trips. I recall Natedogg mentioning there's only so much you can eat. In doing it this way, at least all the THEO generates freeplay & gift points- there's no portion of THEO not having at least some benefit to the player.

Riders · Mar 9, 2016

I definitely like the idea of getting all the Grazie program points I can get. I know I couldn't give up table games all together but I can concentrate my play where I get the most bang on the back end. More machines at V/P and more tables at MLife ... at least for me.

broncofn · Mar 9, 2016

Im not really big on the v/p properties. I love handling the cards, drama, interaction etc while playing bacc but i will try this to see how i like it on my next trip.

sailboat310 · Mar 9, 2016

Do they treat this as a regular table game? Meaning no w-2g or reporting?

Imperial Baccarat @ Palazzo

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